Paul Preston: "We know about the crimes in the Republic with certain accuracy, but it is more difficult to know about the victims of the Franco regime"

The University of Barcelona is in charge of the project of the DNA Bank of the Civil War victims in order to help the families who are looking for the bodies of the murdered people. How were the bodies treated in both sides, Francoist and Republican?

There was an incredible difference. Firstly, there is a big difference in quantity between both sides regarding the treatment of the bodies; nothing was done in the Francoist side. At the beginning, with the African columns coming from Seville, there were lots of dead people left at the ditch and there was no effort to identify them. Lots of people were killed. Afterwards, the Francoists tried to legalize what they were doing -or giving an image of legality- and more or less they knew who the dead people were. There were different stages of this massacre, and it is necessary to say that the Franco regime started differently in each place.

In the Republic it was very different. Authorities made an effort to identify the dead people, the victims of such atrocities by the common criminals, the anarchists, ultra-left-wing.

From 1940 on, Franco supporters made an effort to identify their victims, and in an exaggerate way… A national institution was created, under the name of Causa General (General Cause). People were invited to inform against their neighbours and they reached an amount of 80.000 victims. But out of these 80.000 victims, after serious researches, only 50.000 were counted, due to lots of repetitions. For instance, if someone from Jaén had died in Madrid, it was counted twice, in Jaénʼs list of victims as well as in Madridʼs.

Itʼs easy to understand that we know about the crimes in the Republicwith certain accuracy, but it is more difficult to know the victims caused by Francoism.

In this case, apart from restoring the bodies of the victims to the families, there is also a historical interest.

The listing cannot be done without the names. That is why the equivalent to our Democratic Memorial in Andalusia is called Todos los Nombres (All the Names). Because this is the most important. Up to now, we got names from around 135.000 people, but there are regions where nothing has been done. Because these are PP (right wing party) supporting regions and there are lots of obstacles… And then there is the problem of the common graves, because you donʼt know who the bones belong to. Therefore, I am happy with this initiative by the DNA Bank, I think it is very important.

Now that we are in Catalonia, do you think anti-Catalanism is a historical continuous issue in the Spanish politics which prevents from finding a solution to the current situation?

Yes. For example, I am now working on the big crises of the Restoration system. Perhaps the only possible solution of the problems of that time was offered by Cambó. And one of the main reasons why it wasnʼt successful was actually the anti-Catalanism by the agricultural oligarchies of Castile and Andalusia.

What happened is that this anti-Catalanism has spread, mostly nowadays due to television. A couple of years ago I attended a Greek friendsʼ wedding. They asked me to be with a Spanish girl who didnʼt speak English. When I started talking to her -she was from Cáceres- she asked me how come I knew how to speak Spanish and whether I visited Spain regularly. I answered I did, and when she asked me where, I said I travelled to Barcelona a lot. Then she said “I hate Catalans”. I asked why and she said “Because they stole everything from us”. “What do you mean they stole everything?” “Like, everything…” I think this is a consequence of the radio and television speeches.

You write books with an important dissemination style. In this visit in Barcelona, for example, you presented the comic version of The Spanish Civil War. Do you do so because you like to write or because as a researcher you feel you have a dissemination responsibility?

I would say it is for both things. I like to write and I am embarrassed if what I write canʼt be read. I donʼt think there is any contradiction in doing a serious thing, based on research, and telling it in a clear and entertaining way. I like to write, and I donʼt know what else I could do. These days I have seen some friends around and we talked a lot about retirement, a colleague said “It is wonderful because I can listen to opera, I am learning solfeggio…” I donʼt. I have a feeling, I donʼt know if it is guilty: I canʼt not-work. I canʼt. When I was thirty-five I had won a chair, nomination of Rector… and the only thing I liked was to give lectures and write.

A couple of years ago, an American academic journal made me a long interview. The professor who interviewed me said “You are very ambitious, arenʼt you?” “Why do you think so?” I asked. “Because you keep on writing and publishing books”. This is the American academic mentality: you publish to get profits. Of course I like my books to be sold. I like that because I have to feed my family but I donʼt do it for this reason.

Over the course of your career, how was your relation with Catalan researchers and especially the ones from the University of Barcelona?

During the Franco regime, while I was working on my doctoral thesis, I had relation with the other students who were also with their thesis. At that time, I only came once to Barcelona. I lived in Madrid and since my research was about mining and agricultural issues, I visited the south, all Andalusia and also went to Asturias. Since the topic of my thesis was the conflict between PSOE and CEDA, there wasnʼt much to say about Catalonia. Later, when I started writing books, I met Catalan people and started traveling around Catalonia. With the publication of my thesis I was invited to give some conferences here, and then I met Josep Fontana, Josep Termes, and Francesc Bonamusa. Later, I started meeting other people through my lectures. Yes, I had a lot of relation with people from here. Mostly with Gabriel Cardona, who was a great friend of mine.